Angrytapeworm
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 06:50 PM |
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First Build Which Engine?
First post!
I bought a bec a few years ago - Stuart Taylor Fireblade - which had already been built. I enjoyed it but knowing nothing about motorbike engines I
sold it after it broke down and I had no idea how to fix it. And I coudnt find a garage that knew what was up with it!
Maybe I should have tried a bit more but I didnt have much experience with cars then.
There were several aspects of the bike-engined format that I didnt like and I always thought if I did get another it would have a car engine.
I have decided that I am going to build my own now and I'm going for an MK Indy R.
The bike engines do seem more interesting. So light, powerful and high revving. But Im 95% made-up that itll be a car engine.
So I'm trying to decide what....
It needs to be something which is easy to install, simple, plenty of people have done before so the parts and knowledge are easily accessible. I have
hardly any experience with a spanner and I dont have many people around to help.
However, I obviously still want as much power as possible! Especially as I have driven the BEC before.
I'm thinking:
2.0 Zetec - not very powerful but commonly done?
2.0 Duratec - as above but a little more powerful - but more expensive
ST 170 - hear that the VCT is bit rubbish?
MK1 MX-5 1.6 (with a view to supercharge) - amazing gearbox but possibly underpowered - not sure ho long (if ever) itd be before i supercharged it
Type R - ?
S2000 - very expensive but would be good, not enough experience / support out there?
I was always leaning toward the fords but i cant believe how little power they produce. I had a peugot gti-6 that produced 167 hp 10 years ago. these
only make 130?!?!
Cheers.
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coozer
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 07:01 PM |
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I have a ST170 in mine and despite all the arguments about the VVt I find mine works fine.
The ecu simply switches it via a relay at 3000rpm and above 30%Tps. Then its off like a shot!
Heres a RR graph from the days I had carbs on it. These carbs weren't jetted for the engine and thats why the top end runs out of fuel.
As you can see the extra power is very handy out of roundabouts
I now have TB's and injection and it makes a bit more.
Just paid £200 for another ST170 this week and the yard has a duratec mondeo in and I think the price would be the same.
IMO zetec option is the cheapest way to go...
Welcome,
Steve
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Hellfire
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 07:03 PM |
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Whether BEC or CEC, the E is just the same?..........
If you have more knowledge/experience with engines now than you did when you had the Stuart Taylor, go for a BEC again 
Phil
ETA - Welcome to the forum.  (I've just noticed it was your first post)
[Edited on 25-3-12 by Hellfire]
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Slimy38
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 07:16 PM |
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If it's your first build then you really ought to consider the drivetrain as well. I'm in the process of putting together a build list,
and top of my list is the engine and drivetrain from an MX5. Because everything is all together in one package, I'm aiming to understand as much
about it as I can before I even remove it from the MX5 and put it in the kit car.
Your other choices don't come as 'factory' as the MX5, with you needing to use alternative routes, albeit in some cases they are
very well travelled. For example, the Ford engines you list would come from a front wheel drive car, so you'd effectively be working with other
people's knowledge to mate it to a rear wheel drive box etc. I admit the amount of information and the helpfulness of people on here is
astonishing, but it still can't be as easy (or as cheap!) as a 'factory fit'.
And as you mention, once you put the basics together you then have huge spec for forced induction.
This is just my personal view, I just thought you might appreciate the view of a fellow 'first timer'...
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BigLee
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 07:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
If it's your first build then you really ought to consider the drivetrain as well. I'm in the process of putting together a build list,
and top of my list is the engine and drivetrain from an MX5. Because everything is all together in one package, I'm aiming to understand as much
about it as I can before I even remove it from the MX5 and put it in the kit car.
Your other choices don't come as 'factory' as the MX5, with you needing to use alternative routes, albeit in some cases they are
very well travelled. For example, the Ford engines you list would come from a front wheel drive car, so you'd effectively be working with other
people's knowledge to mate it to a rear wheel drive box etc. I admit the amount of information and the helpfulness of people on here is
astonishing, but it still can't be as easy (or as cheap!) as a 'factory fit'.
And as you mention, once you put the basics together you then have huge spec for forced induction.
This is just my personal view, I just thought you might appreciate the view of a fellow 'first timer'...
These were my thoughts as a 1st timer. The simplicity of the MX5 drivetrain makes life much easier, rather than converting bits to work. Although,
cost wise, to get the power Coozer has, it'll cost more. I would guess mine is over £1k on top of the engine for all the turbo stuff. I would
imagine a similar driving experience too. Drive it light under 3000 revs, and it's a lovely calm engine. Open the taps though and all hell
breaks loose
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daniel mason
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 07:38 PM |
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s2000 will cost you an absolute fortune! guess how i know? lol.
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 08:05 PM |
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Don't forget going old-school.
The pinto is still out there, and is bomb-proof.
It's cheap to tune (to a ceiling, and then cost gets exponential). It's cheap to maintain and service (lots of parts out there) and it
bolts onto the type-9, and there's a bazillion of those out there.
And also - welcome on your first post. I'm only a hundred or so in, and I've found this to be a great community - lots of friendly
knowledgeable people, and supportive as well.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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coozer
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 08:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Don't forget going old-school.
The pinto is still out there, and is bomb-proof.
It's cheap to tune (to a ceiling, and then cost gets exponential). It's cheap to maintain and service (lots of parts out there) and it
bolts onto the type-9, and there's a bazillion of those out there.
And also - welcome on your first post. I'm only a hundred or so in, and I've found this to be a great community - lots of friendly
knowledgeable people, and supportive as well.
Theres a cheap way to tune a Pinto, take it out, swap it for a zetec! A 2L zetec on bike carbs will give 165bhp. try getting a pinto up to that!
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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big_wasa
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 08:37 PM |
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christ you got a bargain on the st lump
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franky
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 09:12 PM |
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What about a bmw engine? Run the standard light/strong gearbox/standard ecu.
150bhp from a m44 1.9
200bhp from a 2.8
300+bhp from a 3.2m3.
A 2.8 can be had with box/ecu etc for about £400.
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rodgling
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 09:37 PM |
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Either Franky or me was going to say it... BMW is a great choice for good value highish power. Not the lightest or smallest engine, but the torque of
the M3 is awesome.
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Andrew@ALD
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| posted on 25/3/12 at 10:39 PM |
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I would say any of the 2.0 Zetec engines as there are loads of performance parts out there for the also they can be turbo charged for very little.
2.0 Duratec engines are also very tunable that responds well to ITB's, Turbos and superchargers and the engine can be taken out to 2.5 but its
not cheap.
The Mazda also do a great engine that comes as a 1.6 and 1.8 from the MX5, Turbo and supercharger kits are out there for them and with the engine
having a lowish compression ratio you can bolt on a charger without removing the head
There is also the Mazda MPS 2.2 Turbo engines, Not cheap also but you will have 260 bhp out of the box.
The Vag 1.8t 20v turbo engines are great engine and massively tunable and becoming cheap too now, in the US they have broken 1000bhp from them in Golf
drag cars
As you had a bike engine before you will wanting a good power to weight ratio so the only way you will get that back is from a small light turbo
engine
Andrew@aldevelopments.com
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rost
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 07:07 AM |
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I'd recommend an SR20DET from a Nissan Silvia. They're a stock RWD fit; so it has a matching gearbox, the inlet points the right way and
the water in and outlet are on the front of the engine.
If you get the S13 version you can easily use the original engine management system, it is pretty simple and has no immobilizer.
It's a turbocharged engine, it has 210bhp stock and lots of room for improvement.
Charlie don't surf!
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FuryRebuild
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 08:31 AM |
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Hi Coozer - I've got 180 BHP out of mine (according to Boggs). However, I wouldn't say it was cheap. Easy, yes.
It required a ported head, full tarmac cam, MSD Ignition, good exhaust, pair of twin 45 dellortos and (when we put Aldon octane booster in) we managed
near 200 (for a very brief run before we shut it down in case it went bang). Over the time i was sorting the engine, I'd made 3 runs to Boggs as
well.
I'm converting to duratec now, and that's not cheap.
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Don't forget going old-school.
The pinto is still out there, and is bomb-proof.
It's cheap to tune (to a ceiling, and then cost gets exponential). It's cheap to maintain and service (lots of parts out there) and it
bolts onto the type-9, and there's a bazillion of those out there.
And also - welcome on your first post. I'm only a hundred or so in, and I've found this to be a great community - lots of friendly
knowledgeable people, and supportive as well.
Theres a cheap way to tune a Pinto, take it out, swap it for a zetec! A 2L zetec on bike carbs will give 165bhp. try getting a pinto up to that!
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
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franky
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 08:45 AM |
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I'm not denying that the duratec/zetec are good engines but with the cost of getting 200bhp and RWD gearbox, surely the 2.8 bmw lump must make
great sense!?
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Angrytapeworm
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 11:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rost
I'd recommend an SR20DET from a Nissan Silvia. They're a stock RWD fit; so it has a matching gearbox, the inlet points the right way and
the water in and outlet are on the front of the engine.
If you get the S13 version you can easily use the original engine management system, it is pretty simple and has no immobilizer.
It's a turbocharged engine, it has 210bhp stock and lots of room for improvement.
This caught my eye but I had a quick look and they se very expensive - over £1k without turbo etc. Is there much knowledge out there for these
installs. For example, I will be wanting to order a chassis with all the engine mounts already welded in position, waiting for the engine to drop in.
I suspect they will be all set for this with a zetec engine but maybe not this one?!?
E39 m3 engine looks tempting.
Main thing striking me is just how big all car engines are!!! Huge!
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rost
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 12:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Angrytapeworm
quote:
Originally posted by rost
I'd recommend an SR20DET from a Nissan Silvia. They're a stock RWD fit; so it has a matching gearbox, the inlet points the right way and
the water in and outlet are on the front of the engine.
If you get the S13 version you can easily use the original engine management system, it is pretty simple and has no immobilizer.
It's a turbocharged engine, it has 210bhp stock and lots of room for improvement.
This caught my eye but I had a quick look and they se very expensive - over £1k without turbo etc. Is there much knowledge out there for these
installs. For example, I will be wanting to order a chassis with all the engine mounts already welded in position, waiting for the engine to drop in.
I suspect they will be all set for this with a zetec engine but maybe not this one?!?
E39 m3 engine looks tempting.
Main thing striking me is just how big all car engines are!!! Huge!
I don't know of a manufacturer that does standard mounts for a SR20DET. So custom mounts will be needed. The engine isn't that big. The
turbo exhaust and inlet manifolds are very compact and do not protrude above the engine. It's a little taller than a zetec, but not nearly as
big or tall as an BMW engine.
Wiring is really easy, not much more than feeding power to the ECU and retrieving the RPM signal for your tacho.
Back in 2009 I bought a Redtop S13 version for €2000, complete with gearbox, ancillaries and ecu. (I guess that is around 1600GBP) The engine never
made it into my kit though, engine swaps on cars built after '98 are pretty difficult.
Edit, my point is: S13 engines are a lot cheaper than S14 or S15
[Edited on 26/3/12 by rost]
Charlie don't surf!
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fesycresy
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 12:36 PM |
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The SR20DET motor isn't big, but the bellhousing is. It's also tall, if I remember rightly.
A couple have done it, and there is an orange MK, but you got to be on the short side! I think it also ran 17's to get some ground clearance.
I think MK made the mounts and modded the footwell when they built the chassis, I seem to recall pictures on here of the bare chassis at MK, when
Martin was still there.
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The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
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Angrytapeworm
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 12:37 PM |
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Why are engine swaps on cars built after 98 difficult?
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franky
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 01:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rost
quote:
Originally posted by Angrytapeworm
quote:
Originally posted by rost
I'd recommend an SR20DET from a Nissan Silvia. They're a stock RWD fit; so it has a matching gearbox, the inlet points the right way and
the water in and outlet are on the front of the engine.
If you get the S13 version you can easily use the original engine management system, it is pretty simple and has no immobilizer.
It's a turbocharged engine, it has 210bhp stock and lots of room for improvement.
This caught my eye but I had a quick look and they se very expensive - over £1k without turbo etc. Is there much knowledge out there for these
installs. For example, I will be wanting to order a chassis with all the engine mounts already welded in position, waiting for the engine to drop in.
I suspect they will be all set for this with a zetec engine but maybe not this one?!?
E39 m3 engine looks tempting.
Main thing striking me is just how big all car engines are!!! Huge!
I don't know of a manufacturer that does standard mounts for a SR20DET. So custom mounts will be needed. The engine isn't that big. The
turbo exhaust and inlet manifolds are very compact and do not protrude above the engine. It's a little taller than a zetec, but not nearly as
big or tall as an BMW engine.
Wiring is really easy, not much more than feeding power to the ECU and retrieving the RPM signal for your tacho.
Back in 2009 I bought a Redtop S13 version for €2000, complete with gearbox, ancillaries and ecu. (I guess that is around 1600GBP) The engine never
made it into my kit though, engine swaps on cars built after '98 are pretty difficult.
Edit, my point is: S13 engines are a lot cheaper than S14 or S15
[Edited on 26/3/12 by rost]
The 6 cylinder bmw engine isn't tall, it leans over at 20deg, standard sump all in a standard locost size engine bay.
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rost
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 03:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Angrytapeworm
Why are engine swaps on cars built after 98 difficult?
Err, sorry, forgot to add that I'm from The Netherlands
Charlie don't surf!
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Angrytapeworm
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 04:18 PM |
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Does anyone know if Mk do a mx5 based Indy?
What bits do I need off the Mazda and how much in total do u think all those bits would be?
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RK
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 05:18 PM |
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Pick the one that the person who is going to help you most is most familiar with. You need help with these things, and from my distances, you are very
close to a lot of potential helpers, but still an ocean away, as it were. You will likely spend quite a bit more than the British guys do as well.
What about a specific trip just to fit an engine, once you get that far? Then you can do the rest on your own. Nothing is going to be cheap; no matter
which way you go.
I do know what you mean about not being near interested garages, etc. You are in a bit of a pickle.
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Angrytapeworm
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 05:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
Pick the one that the person who is going to help you most is most familiar with. You need help with these things, and from my distances, you are very
close to a lot of potential helpers, but still an ocean away, as it were. You will likely spend quite a bit more than the British guys do as well.
What about a specific trip just to fit an engine, once you get that far? Then you can do the rest on your own. Nothing is going to be cheap; no matter
which way you go.
I do know what you mean about not being near interested garages, etc. You are in a bit of a pickle.
Bit confused! I'm British and live in England!
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daniel mason
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| posted on 26/3/12 at 05:38 PM |
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mnr do an mx5 based kit for a good price and are doin turbo conversions i think
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